Furry Writers' Guild Forum

Some Thoughts, from an Outsider

General Writing Discussion
#1

Hi!

(if this isn’t the right place to post this, feel free to move/delete this topic. I wasn’t sure which section was the most appropriate)

First, English’s not my first language, so please forgive me for any mistake or if any of this sounds weird to you guys. I mostly learned it from books, so it’s probably gonna be sounding a little off to someone who speaks it from birth. Also, sorry for butting in as an outsider, and for the incoming wall of text. There’s a few things I wanted to say.

As some of you might have guessed from my name, I’m from Italy. I’m a dude, I like reading, writing and playing the guitar, and participate in our nation’s favorite hobby: eating. One day, when I was a kid, I discovered the internet and decided I had to learn English, so I did. I’m making it sound a lot simpler than it was, and at a certain point I visited England and America, but that’s a different story.

I discovered the furry community a couple of months ago, a short time after getting into webcomics. My initial reaction was along the lines of “oh, so someone gave a name to Bugs Bunny’s art style, cool”, and I started to dig into it. I soon found out how much people outside the community hated it, and how much it was stigmatized by the media. That was kinda weird, I thought. Maybe it comes with me being Italian, since anthropomorphic animal characters here are much more common than in the U.S., but I’m going off topic. I thought the overall art style was pretty unique, and even if there do was some pretty weird stuff (but hey, isn’t this the Internet?) I started to toy with it.

To give some context, I wasn’t particularly interested in joining the furry community as much as I wanted to learn about it, and maybe from it. I like writing, as I said, and one of the things I do to improve myself is to try and learn from people who have a different view of the world than mine. The more different a person is from me, I think, the more chances I can learn something useful (or at least curious) from them. So I started to think about the way I would approach writing a furry story.

It was pretty fun. I found out immediately that it’s more of a visual style than a genre, and that unless physicality was involved, there really wasn’t much difference in how the characters were developed. Unless you go with a tribal mindset, where fangs and claws play a prominent role and you approach things from a hunter-prey point of view, writing furries and writing humans didn’t really feel that different. Sure, some details must be changed, and I’m not really sure whether saying things like “they where holding paws while walking through the park” sounds ridiculous or not, but still. Not that different.

That was just surface level stuff, though. How does it affect the story on a cultural level? What can I do with the concept of “animal people” for some worldbuilding? The predator/prey aspects were a bit too obvious, and most people seemed to use it for either fantasy, sci-fi or realistic slice-of-life scenarios. The last one was the most interesting: in an already fantastical setting, having this kind of characters doesn’t affect the overall “feel” of the story much, but when you portray them in a way that’s closer to our world, you can use them for some pretty interesting things.

For example, you can use them as a metaphor. And not in the usual “sly fox, proud lion” sort of way, but you can use animal species to represent a certain segment of the population, a point of view or even a particular nationality. Writing them this way was interesting, also because it tended to cause some curious implications. For example, do I write African-ish people as lions or as hyenas? Every animal carries a meaning with itself, simply by belonging to a certain species. Then again, I could always deconstruct it and subvert the reader’s expectation of an animal motif. Fun stuff.

But the best thing I discovered was when I tried to completely separate the realistic furry world from ours. By using anthropomorphic characters, I could create a believable modern setting in an alternate world. Think alternate history, but not with a different event creating another reality: a fictional world from the ground up, set in our exact time period, without any hint of magic, castles or space travel. This is something that I don’t think our suspension of disbelief would allow with human characters: it would feel way too close to our reality for our brain to accept it as a narrative, and we’d feel like we’re reading something really childish unless there’s another element telling us that it’s not actually the real world.

I know every single one of you probably already knows these things, but I still wanted to throw them out there. There’s more stuff, but I’m gonna cut this short, I just wanted to say I had a lot of fun exploring something I’m not familiar with, in a language that isn’t mine, starting completely from scratch. That’s all.

At the very least I’m gonna get some constructive criticism on my knowledge of grammar. I’ve attached one of the short stories I wrote as an exercise, if anyone’s interested. It’s, well, as good as an amateur’s attempt can be, but if you’re curious you can always check it out. It’s really short, about two pages.

Thanks for reading :slight_smile:

Edit: better version in the comment below. Thanks Rabbit!

Live, Love, Suffer.pdf (33.3 KB)

#2

Heh!

We’ve wasted barrels of ink, devastated vast pulpwood forests for paper and diverted I don’t how many trillions of electronics from their naturally-ordained courses discussing the basic usages and symbology of anthropomorphics in fiction, yet there’s always room for new voices and ideas. Welcome!

I always especially admire writers whose native languages aren’t English who try and make sense of this twisted, convoluted tongue; I’m even more impressed when they make an pretty excellent job of it, as you have. I offer the suggestions below to clean things up, but overall it’s pretty trivial stuff. Write with confidence and then find a native-speaking beta-reader to make trivial adjustments, I’d say. Note that Canadians, Americans, Brits, New Zealanders and Aussies all speak related though subtly different languages-- what’s correct in one is really and truly often erroneous in another, just to make matters even more confusing. Even worse, some Americans are southerners (most of y’all already know that describes me!) and some Brits are Scots. But basically, you’re directly on target.

Welcome!

north, and immigrated

Delete the comma

moving, he, huh… He

huh should be uh

Wolves don’t really get along with us, and the language thing, you know.

Try Wolves don’t really get along with us. And there’s the also the language thing, you know.

single one of my friends’ telling me that

Try single one of my friends has been telling me that

#3

I think the best way to properly learn a language is to live (at least for a while) in a place where you can speak it every day, but that’s not an option for me at the moment. English grammar’s not really that complex, compared to other European languages, but once you try to actually write a story you hit many roadblocks – it’s almost impossible to judge it by yourself on a stylistical level, or the fact that I had to google “hit many roadblocks” to see if it translates well or if it makes no sense. But hey, if Conrad could do it, I thought I’d give it a try.

Yeah, the fact that it has so many regional influences makes it pretty hard to grasp. It’s fun, though. There are some ideas you can explore in English that wouldn’t work in Italian – for example, in the short story I uploaded, the sex of the person the main character’s talking to is never specified. The second person in the English language doesn’t distinguish between male or female, while Italian does, so I can insert an element of ambiguity that can be left to the reader’s interpretation.

Also (shame on me) using a character for whom English is also a second language and who’s in a pretty confused state of mind gave me a way to sidestep the language barrier and write with confidence.

About your suggestions:

  • comma deleted

  • “moving, he, huh… He” : there’s an official spelling for this onomatopoeia, or is it a stylistical thing?

  • “[…] with us. And there’s […]” : I was using a style based on short and broken sentences to communicate the state of mind of the protagonist, but I thought that using it continuously would end up being annoying pretty fast, so I decided to connect a few sentences to give it a better flow. Punctuation aside, yeah, your version’s better.

  • grammatical tense corrected

I’m attaching the corrected version here. Thanks :slight_smile:

Live, Love, Suffer - ver2.pdf (33.4 KB)

#4

Just thought I would add that your English is better than that of many for whom it is their mother tongue.

#5

But that’s one of the problems: perfect English is the only English I know. This is unbelievably limiting when developing characters, since any attempt to create someone who doesn’t speak scholastic English has to rely on second hand experiences. I can’t talk like this when writing, say, a high schooler, or a homeless person, and I need to rely on studying other writers. The results often fall flat.

(I’m also probably sounding way older than I actually am, I just realised)

#6

Oh, I see. Yes, slang is difficult. I know people who have been speaking English for decades and do so with excellence, yet fail to grasp even rudimentary slang. Fear not, though, for we shall help you!

#7

In English, “huh” and “uh” are both words that have different meanings. I didn’t read onomatopoeia there. I read words, because in that particular circumstance or usage most readers of English look for words. “Huh” implied a question being asked, which seemed grossly out of place. “Uh” implied the speaker searching for the next word, which seemed to fit.

Yep, cross-language stuff can hit you where you least expect it. And I’m a big fan of Conrad; love his “Typhoon”! Part of my admiration for him is indeed the language issue.

#8

Welcome! These are all good questions, and they may not have a single right answer but you’re going to have fun working out what your particular right answer is.

I love going to Italy because I can eat all my favourite things and it’s part of the cultural experience :slight_smile:

#9

Taking notes

Oooh, Huskyteer, I get it now, it’s a pun. Hehehehe

Do you guys mind if I stick around to ask a few questions? I just wanted to improve my grasp on non-human character, but this is becoming a great learning experience. There’s a few things I’d like to ask to someone who’s been writing them for a while.

(might as well give myself a face if I plan on staying for a while. Straight from my cyberpunk childhood, Colonel Groft Van Moor, courtesy of Disney, 1999)

#10

Ask away, in my book. I for one will help with as much as I can as my personal time allows. Helping other authors means more good stories for all of us to read!

#11

All right! First question:

  • How much can biology influence a reader’s suspension of disbelief?

Since omnivores are not that common among animals, most of the stories revolve around carnivores, herbivores or both. Now, I’ve seen two different opinions on this: either their diet seems to be modeled after a human diet, even if it should be harmful to the character (or at the very least, indigestible), or food is barely shown.

The first option, in my opinion, can easily break the reader’s immersion, especially in the case of herbivores eating meat (oddly enough, the opposite seems way more common, but then again from what I’ve seen this community tends to prefer carnivores so maybe it’s a case of unbalanced data). The second one, on the other hand, greatly limits the amount of scenarios a writer can come up with. A third option could be to use their actual diet in the story, but then it’s impossible not to make it a cultural factor while you’re planning your fictional world.

So, does this factor into your suspension of disbelief, or is it an acceptable break from reality? I know it probably depends on the reader (and there are people who will refuse to read a sci-fi story if the science isn’t 100% accurate), but it’s the kind of thing I’d have to ask as many people as possible to get a good idea of the answer.

(this is not just for Rabbit, I’d love to hear as many different opinions as possible)

#12

Diet, and pets, can be difficult. I don’t think there’s one solution that works for everybody; what feels right for one reader can be jarring for another, which is why you’ll often find the subjects glossed over.

But it can be fun to play with - a friend of mine RPs a rabbit character who’s often seen gleefully tucking in to a bacon sandwich - and can also be used as a point of conflict or symbolism.

The thing I’d avoid doing is breaking off in the middle of a story to spend several paragraphs explaining why your furries do or don’t eat meat, or whatever. If it’s important to the story, sneak it in subtly.

(My characters drink a lot of coffee, I notice, which real animals wouldn’t do at all!)

And yes, my name is a silly pun :slight_smile: If you grew up in Italy, maybe you watched Dogtanian/Dartacan? A big influence on my childhood.

#13

I’m in giggle-fits seeing such an interested outsider combing the furry writing groups for answers! Happy days!

As for your latest question, it’s something that can most certainly be played with. As Husky pointed out, there’s a variety of differing opinions for both readers and writers. One writer had a rabbit character who was more than happy to eat a feral rabbit in front of unwanted suitors. It wasn’t just for the shock value though- if any bothered to ask, she would explain that the higher level of intelligence required more protein for the brain, and she found the most conveniant way was to drop the ‘taboo’ and include meat in her diet.

Sometimes by understanding the why of certain biological reasons, it not only makes our stories more believable, but can give us that much more to toy with in the worlds we create.

Also, please feel free to chat with us in the shout box. Sometimes when living in a culture isn’t an option, the next best thing is to hold casual conversation with those who are native English speakers. You’ll see plenty of slang flying around, and most of us are more than happy to explain anything that might confuse or confound.

#14
#15

Don’t draw attention on things that won’t matter to the story, then. Sounds reasonable.

I’ve never heard of Dartacan, though the name is unmistakably an (amusingly horrifying) Italian pun. I was more of a comic books kid, especially the experimental stuff Disney published in the nineties, like PKNA (where my profile picture comes from).

That sounds… Confusing. I guess I need to know the context, but if I’m not misunderstanding, you’re talking about a world with both anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic beings sharing the same species, where it’s socially unacceptable (but biologically safe) to eat your non-anthropomorphic equivalent?

  • to Rabbit (I’m having difficulties quoting you, being on a tablet doesn’t help)

My question was more about the reader’s side of things, but you bring up some really interesting points. “They’re partly human” sounds like an excellent third option (I’m almost shocked I never thought about it), but doesn’t it apply only to your particular case, where transformation is involved? I was under the impression that the existence of humans wasn’t the norm, but the exception (see your writing, or the webcomic Jack), and that the animal side was the prevalent one when working with a character.

The rest of your comment is some excellent food for thought. Where can I find your book? I’d like to check it out.

#16

Sorry about the formatting on my last post-- it’s a mess and I don’t even begin to know how to fix it. Let’s hope this is better!

Almost invariably when anthros are “uplifted” there is some sort of “part-human” involved. It doesn’t have to be via transformation-- in can be gengineered into the mix in vitro. Besides… If you have a dog that talks, thinks, wears bifocals and walks about on two legs, well… He’s sure as heck not 100% pure dog, no matter how you slice it. The rest has to come from somewhere, and that can be the part (whatever it is) you call on to explain whatever diet (or pretty much anything else) you seek to justify.

Thanks for asking about my book! “The Book of Lapism” referenced above is currently out of print, as it’s been pulled from the market for editing and to add more stories. It should be for sale again in a few months-- the only thing holding it up is a delay in cover art that looks like it may go on for some time. If, however, you wish to look at my other stuff you can find about twenty titles here:

I’m listed for sale in other places too; feel free to search my last name, which is unusual enough to lead you pretty directly to my fiction and where it’s sold.

“Ship’s Boy” is a free giveaway (in the USA at least, I hope this is also true overseas but am not certain), and typical of my action-adventure stuff. I also write in other genres, however, and the titles listed there also include some literary fiction, straight SF, and even two political novels.

#17

Sorry for the confusion >.< Yes, it’s a world with both anthro and non-anthro. Indeed, the anthros are relatively new to said world, so there is still quite a bit for the non-anthros to adjust to.

#18

The biology you present in a story depends on an awful lot on the kind of world you’re trying to present and what you want the story to focus on. I tend to pay attention to things like enhanced senses of smell, emotions broadcast through tail and ear movements, and the ergonomics of having fur and tails, and show differences in diets on occasion. But I tend not to hew too closely to “real world” limitations of species unless it’s going to add something to the story. Rabbit covered some rationales why, but my assumption is that even if my furries have no human in them at all, they have about as much in common with their non-anthro relatives as humans do with monkeys.

There’s really never a hard and fast rule, though. I write stories in a fantasy world where several anthropomorphic species coexist with humans the way elves, hobbits and dwarves do in some other fantasy worlds; I’ve written other stories in somewhat ill-defined “our world but with furries instead of humans” settings; currently I’m flailing at a hard science fiction novel in which genetically everyone is human but there’s genetic transformation that can be applied post-birth to make them “totemics,” and inheritable transformations are an unrealized holy grail (or potentially the end of humanity, depending one’s point of view).

#19

So the overall opinion seems to be either to use it as a source of conflict, explore its implications or to ignore it unless it adds to the world your characters live in.

You guys are amazing, you know that? I came in here expecting a few interesting remarks and a pat on the back, but I’m blown away by how much effort you’re putting into your answers. I still have a lot of questions, and since we’re on the theme of biology, here’s a couple.

  • Is the difference between digitigrade, plantigrade and unguligrades purely cosmetic?

I was flipping through some stuff, and saw that there seems to be an equal amount of them (and, since I’m not well prepared in anatomy, I had to go through a Wiki walk to figure out the name of what I was looking for). The subject is similar to what we already talked about, but I can’t figure out any advantage/disadvantage beyond “it looks cool”. How could these factor into the character’s ability to move? How does it affect their balance, or their grip on a solid surface? I tried taking a look at animal biology, but it occurred to me that the difference in posture would invalidate everything I found. And talking about balance, how much does a tail influence it?

And, in a non-visual medium such as literature, is it a good idea to spend a paragraph defining these details? Can it be a deal breaker to the reader to have all of them in the same species?

  • How can a character deal with changes in temperature?

The thing with humans is, we’re extremely adaptable to different environments. And even keeping in mind what Rabbit said about balancing out human and non-human biological traits, it’s impossible not to assume that a character with fur will have more troubles dealing with the desert’s heat, or that a character with scales wouldn’t exactly be able to do some outside work during winter. It’s pretty easy to use this as a setup for a joke, but in a realistic setting, how can a character deal with it? Tipping the scale toward human, and sweating/shivering? Or tipping the scale toward animal, and panting/sunbathing? What would the reaction of the reader be to one of these choices?

I know that you can answer all this stuff with “it’s just a story”, but I feel it’s a cop out.

#20

Again, a lot of this comes down to what works in the world you build. For some stories, there’s no real point in even mentioning digitigrade/plantigrade/unguligrade. In others, it can play a part. As far as my experience goes as a reader, rp’er, and newish writer, it usually tends to be more for ‘it looks cool’ than anything. It can also give more of a feel of just how human vs animals the anthros are, since those more leaning toward animal will be more likely to be digitigrade, for the most part. The size and focus of your story will most likely be the best judge of how much detail you go into those.

I’ve seen tails used in very clever ways though, depending on the anthro. It can play a huge part in spy/cyberpunk/anything real sneaky-sneaky where breaking-and-entering or reaching hard-to-reach areas are a factor. I’ve seen tails used as distractions in fight scenes, much akin to the scarves used in some forms of martial arts weapon play. In the sports story we were originally planning, the big question of whether or not tails should be used to take a player down during a game of American Football was going to be a huge factor. They’re also amazing emoters, and can be even more revealing than lips are for a human (smile vs tail between the legs, or tail wagging vs a very serious scowl). There’s so much to play with and explore when it comes to tails :3

As for question two, I’ve seen a great combination of ways to deal with temperature change. Again, I think that comes down to personal preference and how human you want your characters to be. Sweat-clumped fur is a fun descriptor to work with, but I’ve seen it used in the same story as panting up a storm.

Btw, you’ll find that a huge pet peeve here is the excuse “It’s just a story”. While it’s true that it has its place when the nit-picking goes way overboard, it’s a horrible catch-all that tends to lead to lazy writing. The very idea that you want to find rhymes for the reason and really think these things through is incredibly encouraging. It suggests the idea that your stories are that much more fleshed out, and there’s that much less of a risk that your characters and setting will just fall flat. So please, keep it coming!