Furry Writers' Guild Forum

Self-Promotion

Alright guys, I think it’s time we had this talk.

The biggest question I have in this regard is, how do I do this without sounding like a jack***? Given the markets we write to, given the places we publish at, given the lack of strong venues to advertise on, and given the seeming lack of interest the general furry community expresses towards reading, how do we tackle this? How do we express ourselves when doing so? What tools do we use?

For me, given the number of furry writers on my twitter, I generally fret over self-promotional tweets being gauche or just generally in poor taste. Reading Anne Lemot’s Bird by Bird, she expressed great difficult in seeing other writer’s success-- and I don’t think she’s the only one. A good friend helped me a bit with this by helping me figure out better ways of phrasing what I say, such as saying “My story got into X anthology” rather than “I got into X anthology,” among others. I’m wondering if anyone else has rules like this they tweet or post by, or any other possible pitfalls I should be aware of?

Self-promotion is an integral part of being a writer in this community, I think (though I’d love to hear more experienced writer’s opinions on this), and so figuring out together how to do it well and politely seems like something we should do.

Thoughts?

I think whenever you try to post material about writing, the goal should be aimed at immersing potential readers in what you want to talk about. What I would do personally is try to find a way to show off your work that’s more “here’s my work and I want you to be a part of it” as opposed to “look, trophies!”

I feel that when you aim to create a community dedicated to sharing work and fostering interest in the things that you care about, you’re cultivating your own cultural ecosystem with producers and consumers to flourish inside of it. People want to read your work because they care about it-- so give them something to care about. Whipping out the resume seems better for matters like “I have the experience and credentials to talk about this or be on this panel or seminar.”

That being said, sometimes I understand that personal twitter accounts can be for posting news to friends and relaxing. But anything in an open source public space hardly stays personal because you eventually get a lot of strangers following you and anybody can read it.

Compliments and “good jobs!” can feel really nice, but at the end of the day I think your friends are going to congratulate your successes anyway, and you don’t have to sacrifice immersing as many people as you can.

I think that’s a great bit of insight. Welp already I’ve learned more! XD

I have seen twitter feeds that are literally nothing more than “BUY MY BOOK OMG HOW AMAZING IS IT LOOK AT ALL OF THESE 5* REVIEWS WHY HAVEN’T YOU BOUGHT IT YET?” over and over again, clearly scheduled to tweet every hour or so.

Don’t do that. Ever.

This might be relevant:

I think it was Neil Gaiman who basically said, just talk with people, and don’t worry so much about trying to sell them things – be yourself, in other words. I probably fail the not-selling-things part sometimes, but I tend to feel like if someone is following me or watching me (or whatever a site’s terminology is), it’s because they’re either interested in my work or interested in me personally, so I don’t mind sharing the links to things when they’re available. I have decided to hold off on talking about acceptances in public social media, since to me that can sometimes just come across as “hey, everybody congratulate me!” – because, unlike publication announcements, there isn’t really anything for anybody to read yet.

So I at least try to not be one of those people who’s always talking about themselves at every opportunity – but of course, for all I know I do come across as a jack*** half the time. :wink: In the end, though, I’ve realized that in this fandom, if I don’t speak up for myself and my work, there’s no guarantee that anybody else will do it for me. So I balance the risk of seeming egotistical with the risk of people not knowing my stuff exists.

Self-promotion is a double-edged sword. While it’s not likely to win you a lot of friends in the long run, it can be extremely effective in selling a product. One author in particular in this fandom has built up a large mass of fans and supporters by, at every chance this author can get on Twitter, advertising their new/existing books. And I mean EVERY POSSIBLE CHANCE. It doesnt feel like this author has gone a day without self-promotion since their first book was publsihed.
Because of the constant self-promotion, I no longer follow this author on Twitter. However, they’ve sold a lot of books because of it.
(I know that several of you know who I’m talking about, and I’m leaving the name and gender out for a reason.)

I will agree with PT in that self-promotion seems a lot less of a selfish move if there’s a product to show for it. So while in the beginning, when you’re getting you first few projects accepted, go ahead and give yourself a public pat on the back. After that, a few posts here and there about a quickly upcoming/newly released story is all that you really need.

While we’re on the subject of social media (at least tangentially), there’s also this to consider, from Matthew Ebel:

http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5878613/

On the one hand, I understand not wanting to be negative all the time (or even most of the time) on social media, because yeah, that is a turnoff. On the other hand, at some point I think you get into that question of how much of your online presence becomes the persona, and whether you can then become less relatable to your audience if you’re always seemingly in Happy Successful Creative Person mode, and not coming across as an actual human being who gets depressed or ticked off sometimes just like your readers/fans do.

Definitely a subject I’m new to, as most will already know.

When it comes to social media, I’m fully guilty of letting my excitement show through. That’s mainly because, of all the strangers that might be reading or following me, I know that I have friends that might be reading them too. I know I’d want to share in my artists’ friends excitement over getting published in a magazine or accepted into a major art book or, really, any accomplishment that’s a huge deal to any of my friends. So why wouldn’t I want to let my friends share in the excitement of being accepted into a publication for the first (second or third) time, or seeing my words in print?

Beyond that, I would think it’s a lot easier when you’re advertising an anthology. You can use the wonderfully sneaky-selfless method of mentioning some of the other great stories you read in it by other authors, and maybe just so happen to throw in something about your own story somewhere in there. Other authors will appreciate the boost, and will be reminded to sing praises of your work.

When it’s a novel or novella, I can only speak from the reader’s perspective. I have a few authors I follow on twitter, and they all seem to have their own rhythm and rhyme for when they advertise their books. As a reader, I appreciate knowing when a book is coming out as soon as the author has the release date confirmed. It gets me amped up, excited, and gives me something to look forward to. Then maybe a reminder a couple of weeks before so I know to put some money aside from my next paycheck. Then maybe day before, but definitely the day of, since my memory is like a steel sieve. From there, I don’t mind a reminder maybe a couple of times a week at first, especially if you find different wordings and maybe clever ways to have fun with it, then let it peeter down from there. Once it’s been a month or so, there really shouldn’t be any weekly reminders >.<

That’s just from my own experience though, and what I myself appreciate as a reader. I’m sure everyone else has their own opinion on it though.

@Jay: The Fangs and Fonts people went over that at the RF panel they did. I believe the example they used was, “Hey guys! Buy Gay Rugby Players Volume 5!”

@PT: It’s interesting that you say that, for two reasons. First of all, I feel the same way. Second of all, I’ve noticed that your (and since I also use it, my) method works–though I do think there’s room to improve efficiency. On the positive side, I tweeted about “The Bear With the Quantum Heart” because I enjoyed it. I likened it to one of my stories that people might have read and urged them to read it if they liked mine. I had one person read it (that I know of) from that and they retweeted my recommendation and tweeted their own too. Just one example of a success of that method. As for the link, I tend to follow that rule myself-- though I do agree that it might make me seem artificial at times. Something new to work on!

@Sean: I know who you’re talking about, and tbh their engine was part of the reason this question came up. It bears pointing out a few things about them. First of all, they aren’t friends with other writers (furry or no) so they have to worry less about my concern in my first post. Second, they also tweet a lot about everything, so even if they tweet three or four times daily encouraging people to buy their work, it’s still a very small total % of their tweets. Most people aren’t that active on twitter, so it becomes a problem. I also am not sure whether they became popular on twitter, then started publishing, or the other way-- if it’s the first, it’s less relevant to examine their methods imo. (Also I think part of their popularity is due to hiring a well-known artist to do their cover illustration, cover art that is sexually enticing. I think, more than people would care to admit, getting a popular artist as your cover artist is a huge part of writing success in this fandom-- or at least a huge part of getting people to pick your book up).

@Munchkin: I think letting your excitement show through is good! Don’t tone your own emotions down on account of others, imo. I don’t think anyone will mind. I think being positive and excited and passionate is a good set of qualities for lightening people’s days-- which, by the way, is a good way to endear yourself to people and make them want to check our your stuff :stuck_out_tongue:

How so? (Just curious.)

Because I’m not satisfied with the efficiency at the moment XD One author in particular who’s made me think this is Brian Rathbone (https://twitter.com/BrianRathbone). He’s used twitter as most of his marketing platform (as far as I’m aware) and he’s been wildly successful. I have not been. I want to figure out why.

I think it’s because he reposts content a lot, retweets other’s content, is lucky that he’s part of a fandom that isn’t a fandom (dragons) and so can post stuff about dragons that will get him followers but won’t get lost in the crowd (like a furry tweeting about furries would), and has been on twitter since nearly day one. But I’m continuing to watch…

My rule is simply pretty much to not self-promote, period. While I’m human and have been known to slip sometimes, I go out of my way more than anything else to actually downplay my stuff. In the end I believe that my fiction will-- must!-- eventually speak for itself. If it sells it sells, and if it doesn’t it doesn’t. My status as a fur and the wonderful, life-changing friends I’ve made among furs to me mean far more to me than all the sales in the world, and I try to remember this at pertinent moments.

I’ll note in passing that here in this forum-- and whenever the nature of the discussion is such elsewhere that I need to speak the truth in order to back up a point-- I tend to be less reticent. I’m among my fellow authors here, and talking business. Thus, sales figures and the like are often relevant, and in the interest of helping myself and others seek truth in whatever we’re discussing I’ll neither downplay nor exaggerate. But out in the open world…

I have given probably about a hundred writing panels on various topics within the fandom at probably a dozen different conventions-- more likely I think north of that number than south. When doing so I very scrupulously never even mention that I’ve written and published roughly twenty books, etc unless point-blank asked. Even when I do a writer’s meet and greet, for example, I begin by introducing myself as a furry author “who writes a lot”. Above all I never, ever promote my books in the course of giving a panel. I do mention them, yes, but only when I sort of have to in the guise of problem solving. “I was writing a book once called “Resisting Arrest”, and had that same difficulty. Here’s how I solved it…” Other than that, well… After a panel is over if I have free promo books to give away-- which I often do-- then as the room empties I’ll pass them out to whoever. People like ‘free’, so that steps on no toes. But I never, ever actively sell or encourage purchases or even announce new titles in my panels-- if my panel-guests had wanted to watch commercials they could have stayed home and saved the reg fee.

In a similar vein… I try not to say “I’ve been ‘x’ successful” even here, because it’s tasteless. However, it’s sort of difficult for me to make my point that an author can treat the fandom with respect and not go out actively turning himself and his life into a walking ad campaign and still sell over a hundred thousand books, which I have done, without informing y’all that I have indeed sold over a hundred thousand books. Recently I was in a discussion on the Guild chat-thingie and the subject of writing for a living came up-- I mentioned that this was hard in part because of instability of income, and that I’d made $20k one year in sales and next to nothing the next. The true figures are important for others to know, in that context. Some have accused me of being immodest, but again here I’m talking business with fellow authors and only the truth will do. Where I’ve quoted such facts and figures elsewhere, it was under the same general principle. Otherwise a low profile is always for the best, at least if keeping and making friends and being a good fur is what’s most important to you. Or so I’ve always felt.

My advice-- Don’t self-promote at all. Find other ways that don’t alienate and annoy your fellow furs. Your product’s quality will either stand up in the competitive marketplace, or it will not. In the end quality always tells.

@rabbit

I am hesitant to make the assumption that “if your work is good, you will sell a lot of it,” or that quality has much to do with sales always. I have to point out that Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray are wildly popular books, and even though I feel they have become somewhat easy targets, they seem to set the standard for “successful and lackluster.” They were worth the purchase to a staggering amount of people, and much of their success seemed to stem from fan fiction communities where grassroots efforts made a spread.

That’s why I still think self-promotion is a worthwhile discussion to have. I really do believe that there’s a communal strategy in setting your career into motion, and that there are a lot of different strategies for success to attempt. I also think that knowing how to talk about your work is a crucial skill that authors should train–people want to know about what you do! I wouldn’t consider sharing your work overbearing so long as you’re will to listen as much as you’re willing to talk. I have to agree with Tigress too in that your work isn’t going to talk about itself. I don’t think it’s always prudent to rely only on word of mouth, either.

When I’m listening to a panel, I like to know the credentials of the people that I’m listening to. And, in this field, your published works are, largely, your credentials. So, I like to hear a quick “I’ve had x number of books and/or short stories published in y genres” and possibly the names of the few most relevant pieces from authors at the beginning of a panel. And, since I like to hear that information, I also give it when I introduce myself on panels. It doesn’t take long, and it lets the people in the audience know what background/perspective they can expect from different speakers on different subjects.

Mm… I don’t think self-promotion means disrespecting the fandom or has to turn your life into a walking ad campaign. I mean, that’s kind of the reason for this thread, to learn and get ideas for how to get the word out that won’t turn people off. I feel like that might have been more of a problem in the earlier days of the fandom, when things were more grassroots and amateur-focused (not meaning amateur pejoratively, but just in the sense of doing things out of love and in a more fannish way). The way things are now, though, I don’t think most people are going to shun a writer just for talking about what they’ve written or sharing links when new things are available. I tend to agree with George that quality – while crucial – isn’t always enough by itself for success. That said, though, everyone’s experience is different, and I’m glad you’ve been able to be successful without having to do things you’re not comfortable with. (Though I’d point out that being on panels at cons and giving out free books could technically be called forms of self-promotion. They’re just not active selling.) :wink:

Agreed. Doesn’t have to be a number necessarily, but I also like having some idea of the breadth/depth of a panelist’s experience, and to me published works are a relevant part of that.

Yeah, for the sake of discussion, I have to disagree with you too Rabbit. If that’s what works for you, that’s great! But it’s not something I’ve seen work in practice. I know authors who wrote some of the worst stuff I’ve ever read (below the average fanfic level) that have been wildly popular, and authors who’ve written the best stories in this fandom who nobody knows, and that’s not including all the grey areas in between of wildly popular mediocre authors and slightly popular very very good authors. I don’t judge author quality entirely by my own assessment here, either, but by the number of people who I’ve met who like/dislike something they’ve read by that author. The closer that number is to 100%, the more it reinforces (or doesn’t) my estimation. If anything, the biggest correlation I’ve noticed is that if you’re good and write erotica, you’re much more likely to be popular and sell well. Honestly, publicity/advertising is the most relevant thing I’ve seen-- especially if, like I said, you consider popularity of your cover artist as part of that (Kyell got big when Blotch illustrated OoP, Alflor’s Stories series illustrated by Tsaiwolf has been very popular, etc.)

As George pointed out, skill selling doesn’t apply outside the fandom either, always.

From a reader’s perspective, to throw another point into the mix… I’ve clicked on various ads on FA for furry books, but so far I’ve found that by the time I get to the actual sample of the work, the quality of the writing (or lack thereof) often means I wind up with no interest in actually buying the book. So the ads “worked” in the sense that I clicked on them and I’ve now heard of the book, but the low quality of the work itself lost me as a potential buyer. So yeah, quality is still crucial in that a good ad (or good art, or what have you) can’t be relied on to save bad writing – not long-term, anyway.

This. You need to have the quality, but if you’re not getting your name and work out there, then no one is going to know that you’re a quality writer.

Even submitting your stories to anthologies or your novels to publishers is a form of self-promotion. The only true path for avoiding all self-promotion is to wait until you die and hope that someone happens to find your work hidden on your hard drive.