Furry Writers' Guild Forum

Novels vs Anthologies (within the fandom)

Publishing and Marketing
#1

This was brought up in the shoutbox the other day, and I know has been a debate in the furry writing community for awhile.

Especially in the last couple of years, anthologies in the fandom have been sprouting up all over the place, while novels and novel writing within the fandom has seemed to have taken a bit of a back seat (from my point of view, at least). Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Here are my thoughts, at least:

On Anthologies - As several writers have said, they are good for gaining skills and getting some work out there when you are starting out. This is definitely a positive thing. However, do they have the same selling power as novels do? From what I have seen, they don’t (except for Heat, maybe). Publishers may feel free to correct me on that one.
I’ve also noticed (and as an editor, this one bothers me the most) that more than a couple of these anthologies are being edited by those who just don’t have the editing skills required to be editing work for publication. While doing research for my Furry Novel in 20 Voices, I went through several stories in several anthologies (and read several from authors not related to the project). Some of these stories were next to unreadable (one in particular read, for the first several paragraphs, like a character reference sheet). Others were lacking basic punctuation all over the place (I counted twelve sentence without ending punctuation in one story, and that was reading quickly). This is clearly something that the authors should be looking out for in their own work, but if someone else was editing my work, I would hope that something as basic as that would get fixed. This is not saying that I or any other editor are perfect in any way, but that’s a lot to miss.

On Novels (and I guess I can throw Novellas into here as well) - To counter one point shown above, novels, as a whole, seem to have much better selling power (again, publishers may feel free to correct me). They also take a whole different skill set to write, in my mind, one that’s quite a bit more difficult for most to master. They also tend to be graded on a much harsher curve, as the fandom publishers are usually tend to be the ones reviewing these, and the publishers are deciding if said novel would make or lose them money.

My point:
Because we are the Furry Writers’ Guild and should thus be helping to support, inform, elevate, and promote the quality of furry writing and its writers in the fandom, this is something that I believe should really be looked at. Are all of these anthologies a hinderance to the overall success of the writers in the fandom, or are they actually helping?

In saying all of this, I know that I, myself, have run and am currently running one anthology. I can guarantee it will be the last that I run, and am only running it because both the publisher and I agreed, in a casual conversation, it would be a fun idea. (Figured I should clear that before I get called out on it.)

#2

I don’t have a lot of time to reply right now, but it sounds like some of your problem with anthologies is a problem with poor editing and not with the anthology structure itself. Based on reading samples, I’ve seen plenty of poorly-written novels in the fandom, and not all of them were self-published.

Selling power – I don’t know. From previous threads and shoutbox discussions here, it sounds like anthologies don’t sell as well as novels in the fandom, but that furry anthologies do tend to sell better than anthologies in the mainstream. Whether that’s a strong enough argument not to publish them seems to me to be something that’s up to the publishers.

Generally, I don’t think anthologies are a hindrance to the overall success of writers in the fandom. Not everybody write novels or wants to. If there’s at least some market for them, and there are writers who want to write for them, then I don’t see a problem with it. Again, I think you’re talking more about bad editing (or bad writing that isn’t helped by proper editing), which is a different problem, and overall is something I do think can hurt furry writing in general. That said, while bad editing might show up more prominently with anthologies, that doesn’t mean it’s endemic to them.

[Edited to add: I also don’t think anthologies have supplanted novels. I’m still seeing plenty of novels (and standalone novellas) published alongside anthologies. I think what the anthologies have actually replaced are all the furry zines and other regular publications that existed more in the late 1990s and early 2000s.]

#3

I think this is true, although it feels like it’s kind of a weird slantwise way they did so. Fur Affinity and friends also cut sharply into the fanzine space. Furry developed a paying small press space post-Internet, basically – YARF!, FurVersion, et. al. paid only in contributors’ copies – and that space hasn’t seemed like it’s been able to support a paying short story market.

I’m not against anthologies and I don’t think they’re hurting furry writing, but my real concern is what I expressed in passing in the intro to my What Happens Next review: that furry writers are a lot more enthusiastic about anthologies than furry readers are.

I’d really like to see a successful attempt to pull together a furry equivalent to Strange Horizons or Apex: a magazine that exists in the online space only so it has comparatively low overhead, with pay rates that at least match the anthologies. I understand why this hasn’t happened, of course; it’s a lot of work with a high likelihood of financial loss. But “curated and free to read” seems to be optimized for connecting interested readers with interesting stories.

#4

Agreed. I think Allasso did it pretty well, with being both free to read and having an ebook version for sale, and being a general publication without a set theme… but of course, that only lasted 3 issues. :confused:

#5

And yet another good furry editor steps down…

#6

Thanks for the compliment. It’s not that working on anthologies aren’t enjoyable, it’s just that it’s not something I can afford to keep doing if I’m not going to make at least something on it.

If the Novel in 20 Voices goes well, though, I may consider another project similar to that in the future.

#7

Here’s to hoping then- I’d drink to that.

#8

I’d be interested in writing novel-length works for furry publishers if there were open calls for them, but there doesn’t seem to be, as far as I can tell, any publisher currently looking for novel-length works. I could submit cold, of course, but if I can chase paying markets with short stories and anthologies, why take the risk on something novel-length?

Doubly so, what, if any, publisher in the genre is in a financial position to offer advances?

I think until the money can follow, anthologies are going to be in a much more important place in the furry genre for the time being. You’ll always have the passionate folks willing to write the novel for the sake of writing the novel, but no few of the FWG folks, myself included, are looking to make a living.

And there just doesn’t appear to be a living to be made in writing novel-length furry stories. (But boy oh boy, if I’m wrong, someone PLEASE correct me and link me!)

#9

The thing about novels versus short stories, financially, is that you’re generally given a flat payment for a short story. Novels pay in royalties. So, over time, novels are likely to pay more.

Edit: Of course, the benefit from a short story isn’t only the payment – it’s a way to get your name and a sample of your work out there where they will hopefully be noticed.

#10

As far as I know, the only authors truly making a living from furry work (or work that could be considered furry) are writing novels.

#11

This is true even for novellas in furry, since – unlike the mainstream sf/fantasy market! – we’ve proven to be open to the notion of selling novellas as standalone volumes. We’re not talking big bucks here either way, but “Indigo Rain” has made well over twice as much as my one-time payment for “Going Concerns,” and still generates a few bucks every quarter.

#12

Anthologies are less of a risk for readers than novels, since with a variety of stories and styles, something is bound to appeal. (The opposite side of the coin is that there are bound to be one or two stories that don’t.)

As a reader, I have to be very sure I’ll like a novel or novella before I commit. Subject matter is one of the criteria, but another important one is: have I read other stuff by this author that I liked? If I have, it’s usually been in an anthology (though might also have been online). So anthologies really are a good proving ground.

This cuts both ways, in that I’ll also buy an anthology on the strength of one or two names I know and love.

Even if I haven’t read their other works, seeing an author’s name around the fandom increases my confidence in them. If they’ve released just the one novel and I’ve never seen their name attached to a short story, I’m a little suspicious. (As writers, you’re all wincing at the idea of writing an entire novel being ‘just’ anything. Sorry.)

Speaking more generally, I also think that e-readers have a lot to do with the rise in popularity of anthologies. Short story collections you can dip in and out of are ideal Kindle fodder.

#13

Yes, this is indeed a very old discussion…

My take on it is that in essence this is the result of us being a very new fandom, and doubly so because our enormous rate of growth is keeping the average writer/publisher experience level very low. We’re gaining numbers faster than we’re gaining experience.

Very few writers begin primarily with novels-novellas. It happens-- I personally did-- but it’s uncommon. Since we have a fandom chock full of smiling, enthusiastic newbies-- and bless them all, for we all were there once ourselves-- they pump out happy, smiling short stories full of, well… Problems. Then we get new, inexperienced publishers who are happy and smiling too, and all pumped up with enthusiasm to put out furry books. They look around, and what do they see but an ocean of short stories written by beginners. full of problems they’re too unskilled to notice! The result is the ongoing flow of poorly-edited short-story collections cited in the origin of this thread.

Novelists usually-- but not always-- are written by more advanced writers. Therefore, even if their works are published by less-skilled editors/publishers, they tend to need less refinement and as a result have a better overall level of quality.

I’ll add in passing that I used to read tons of 1930’s/1940’s SF. While today lots of people still read and fawn over the gems of the era, well… There was plenty of poorly-composed and badly-edited slop back then too. For precisely the same reason, I suspect.

As far as relative sales go…

I have both novels and anthologies on the market-- novels by me, and books of short stories solely by me presented to the customer not just side-by-side but actually intermixed with each other on Amazon’s page. This creates a sort of improvised sales-research laboratory, since (at least in my opinion) the marketing, editing and quality-of-writing are exactly equal for both types of book. The results? It’s fair to say that I’ve sold dozens if not hundreds of novels for each book of short stories-- certainly closer to the latter than the former. Why, I have no idea. Personally I’m a big fan of short stories and always have been, and the only reason I don’t write more of them is that my abilities/inspirations/habits lean heavily towards novels.

#14

Part of what actually sells anthologies is publishers at cons. I just don’t think the readership is there for free stories online. Especially if they’re not erotic. There are simply More Readers for normal SF/F online magazines to work; the pool of potential fandom readers is quite smaller. I mean, if anyone wants to give it a shot, by all means, but…

Also, I didn’t think money was the financial interest for furry writers. The incentive of anthologies, for the writer, is getting a story of yours in print in a book. For a far shorter amount of time and effort than a novel, as well as exposure - getting your name next to a name that might draw in readers. Also, if writing long works is not your skillset, it gives you the opportunity to actually be published.

Furthermore, novels and anthologies are not a zero sum game. You can write a novel and submit a story to an anthology. A publisher isn’t going to say “welp, I’m publishing one anthology, so that’s one novel I can’t publish”.

Finally, most of the fandom writers with success started as short story writers. Before there was a venue to Publish them, they just posted online, and built a fanbase that way. In the mainstream, a lot of big authors started with short stories. Now, I don’t know any that have popped up in the last couple of years.

I've also noticed (and as an editor, this one bothers me the most) that more than a couple of these anthologies are being edited by those who just don't have the editing skills required to be editing work for publication.
Which is the case with novels, too. Neither Rabbit Valley nor FurPlanet have an on-staff editor. The only editing they can afford is a single proofread for typos, punctuation, etc. After that, it goes to print. The amount of editing ends up as the author's responsibility.

As far as selling power, no, they do not sell as well. However, that’s a concern for the editor and/or publisher. Personally, as an anthology editor, I consider them a sound investment. I may drop $500-$600 to pay the authors, but I will then receive royalties over time to repay that (but this is based on erotica books, which sell better than GA). But those royalties are small as time goes by. If those royalties were split among all the authors, they would see at most a dollar. To give you an idea, FP’s breakdown works like this: out of a $20 antho, a little over $6 goes to printing. That leaves $14 split between publisher and author/editor. So with an antho, that’s $7. Now split that between the 10+ authors, plus the editor who would get a larger cut because They did a lot of work. An author would make dimes per sale. Leaving the choice between making $30 up front, or it taking several years to make that in royalties. Anthologies that publish only on Amazon give 30% to Amazon, editors get 30% of royalties and split 40% between authors and all reports say that never pays out.

Finally, yes, the most successful authors in the fandom write novels. However part of that success comes when you have multiple novels out - the more books you have out, the more likely someone will read one, like it, and pick up more by you. So to maximize success means dedicating oneself to writing novels.

#15

I hope mentioning actual dollar amounts isn’t crude, I just want to offer actual amounts I’ve received to offer data points.

Here’s the source of my royalties:
1 novella, released in 2010, royalty $3
1 anthology, released in 2011, royalty $7
1 anthology, released March 2014, royalty $7

I didn’t start recording the income until 2014. According to Uncle Sam, I received a little over $900 in 2012. The Fiscal year for 2014 just ended and I’ve received $600.

The anthology that came out last March is not selling as well, but even so, I’m happy with these numbers, which will grow as more books go out.

Edit: A little more on the finance game. This deals with how FurPlanet handles anthologies and other works. With a novel/novella, you pay nothing. They print it, they pay you half profits. With an anthology there are two methods as an editor. Either 1) you do not receive royalties, they pay you $200 and thank you for your work. This is how Roar and Fang are handled for instance. Or 2) You pay the authors out of pocket, and thus get an equal share of profits. I do not know how Rabbit Valley pays their editors.

#16

Most publishers don’t have open calls for novels in the same way they do for anthologies (in fact I don’t think any do. It’s a process typical to anthologies or magazines with a theme.) Typically you write your book, perhaps with a market in mind, then you query, and if they’re interested, they’ll ask for the whole thing.

As far as advances… I consider most furry publishers to be “small press.” Very few small presses offer advances, in any genre, and if they do, they’re nominal (Think around $1,000 or most likely less). The model many are turning to is no advance, but to offer a higher rate of royalties that is more attractive than trying to break into a huge publisher and run the risk of not even earning out your advance. Sure, you might get a $10,000 advance from Big Publisher A, but if you don’t “sell through,” you don’t make a dime in royalties and they will likely not risk publishing your next book.

So I wouldn’t look at advance/no advance as a yes or no deal with a publisher, unless you desperately need the money. (And if you desperately need money I don’t recommend writing as a career path :wink: )

I have seen novels offered through furry publishers. I agree with Mary that if you want to make money, long term, novels are the way to go. They’re also great, great fun to write once you try. :slight_smile: I think if you have a novel in you, write it up, polish it, and submit. Why not?

#17

Actually, most of the furry publishers don’t have open calls for novels right now at all. The Sofawolf, Rabbit Valley, and Anthropomorphic Dreams sites all say that they’re currently closed to novel submissions. From what Fuzzwolf said on a panel at FC, it sounds like FurPlanet has a slush pile 250 manuscripts deep.

This is a daunting, depressing situation if you’re hoping to get a novel traditionally published. That said, self-publishing is an extremely valid route right now. Otters In Space started out self-published. M.C.A Hogarth self-publishes. Skyfire won the Ursa Major for best novel last year, and, unless I’m mistaken, it was self-published. And that’s just authors inside the furry fandom. If you look outside… Well, there are some wildly successful books that started out self-published.

Of course, if you’re self-publishing novels, then you need to find ways to get readers who’d like your books to notice them. That’s where it’s extremely handy to have short stories in all the anthologies. At least, that’s been my theory.

#18

Compared to what? Commercial furry short story anthologies like the ones we’ve been talking about? In the immortal words of Wikipedia, “Citation needed.” :slight_smile:

I think you’re underestimating the magic of the word potential in your own argument. The pool of potential readers of furry anthologies is limited to people who (a) already know about furry publishers and/or go to furry cons and (b) are willing to spend money on the anthology. The pool of potential readers of stories presented for free, online, on a site with no required user registration, is limited to people who (a) read fiction on the Internet.

And no, I’m not being facetious. (Well, not entirely.) What an online magazine in particular would have that commercial, non-free furry publications don’t have is casual discoverability. The majority of self-identified furries don’t go to cons (and seem rather loathe to spend money), but they’re pretty much 100% online. And when it comes to people who don’t identify as furries but might be willing to read the occasional story with talking animals, the online 'zine – assuming it doesn’t brand itself in a way that screams “THIS IS FOR FURRIES ONLY AND IF YOU ARE NOT A FURRY JUST GO AWAY” – has a measurable advantage over an anthology, no matter how good the anthology’s content may be.

I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable to expect that such an endeavor could get several hundred regular readers and, thanks to the magic of search engines and the occasional but inevitable unexpected link from Twitter, Reddit and friends, a “long tail” that extended well past another thousand occasional readers. Is that huge? If you’re measuring against other web sites, no. If you’re measuring against print anthologies, though…?

#19

I think a furry e-zine along the lines of Strange Horizons, Apex, Daily SF, or some hybrid of those is a fantastic idea. It’s one that I’ve thought about before, but it’s not an endeavor that I would be up to managing on my own.

#20

This would be what Allasso was correct? I believe PT mentioned them earlier.

Did they stop publishing because of costs as well?