Furry Writers' Guild Forum

Ideas and Suggestions for the Guild Future

Oh, I’m sure we can find something (and probably multiple somethings) for you to do. That goes for the rest of you as well.

A more general statement: I love the energy we’re seeing, and this abundance of ideas is a good thing. But what is absolutely crucial here is to preserve that drive in a way that will keep it intact well into the future. To put it another way, this is a marathon, not a sprint. There’s a lot of inertia to be overcome.

At the moment, the majority (almost all) of FWG administrative tasks are being handled by only two people, and we’re already stretched pretty thin just with the day-to-day stuff. We’re not going to manage a major overhaul of the guild here in the last quarter. We can, however, begin the move towards reform and reinvigoration. We will try to establish that precedent for our successors.

I gotta admit, I like a lot of what you wrote up there! I might be too new to offer up any concrete suggestions, so I’m more or less experiencing things as they go. Perhaps I just haven’t taken advantage to all there is to offer here, but I can appreciate how difficult it is to keep an organization streamlined and fresh in an ever-changing world. Still, if there’s any work that needs to be done, I’m willing to lend a hand.

I didn’t even know there was a telegram chat. I’ve been in slack when I remember to open it XD dang i missed a lot.

There have been two volumes of FWG anthologies published. While I don’t have the data at hand for how the first volume did, I do for the second; it was published in August 2018, and despite paying a pretty nominal flat rate of $20 per story, it has yet to earn its money back. (I’ll be up front and say that I don’t think original story anthologies published under the auspices of the FWG is a particularly good idea, but that may be a different argument.)

The problem of what “marketing” the Guild means is one I wrestled with in the past, when I served as president, and I never came up with a satisfactory answer. I’d like to think I did a decent job of getting the Guild’s name out at furry conventions, from running Meet & Greets to promoting it at panels to giving away bookmarks… but I really couldn’t figure out what else to do. I think we did a pretty good job of communicating our resources to members (chiefly the Forums, voting in the Coyotls, and later the Slack channel; the Telegram group wasn’t really “official” during most of my tenure), but outreach to non-members was always a challenge.

I think it’s worth stepping back and considering what we want the Guild to be for.

At its conception, the FWG had a grudge about the perceived respect – or lack thereof – of writers within furrydom, and frankly a bit of a chip on its shoulder about open archive sites. This was never stated explicitly, but you can see echoes of it in how the mission statement focuses on “elevating quality writers,” and the first couple of years of the Coyotls have separate adult and non-adult categories in large part because of very early fights over whether the FWG wanted to promote adult material at all. (Originally there was going to be an entirely seprate award, the Anansi Award, IIRC.)

The FWG was consciously modeled on the SFWA (Science Fiction & Fantasy Writers of America), I’m pretty sure because that was the model Duroc and a couple other early participants could most readily use as a basis. The problem is that the SFWA is, at its heart, a union: it was formed to advocate for writers’ rights with, and if necessary against, publishers. The FWG has no real union aspect, though, and I’ve long suspected this is a hole in our entire underlying rationale: does furry actually need an SFWA? If not, just what should the FWG be?

On marketing, though, I will rephrase something that I’ve said before. If you ask the average literary science fiction fan if they’ve heard of the SFWA, it’s a tossup at best, but they have absolutely heard of the Nebula Awards. They are a capital-B, capital-D Big Deal.

The Coyotl Awards certainly aren’t the Nebulas, but they’re known outside furry fandom at this point. Non-furry publishers have mentioned their Coyotl nominations and wins. Tor mentioned their win for Barsk on the back of its paperback release. (Sure, at the behest of the FWG-member author, but: they still did it.) They are probably the FWG’s biggest asset in terms of marketability and promotion – yet that’s largely untapped within furry itself.

(There is one Coyotl Award anthology, published in mid-2019 by FurPlanet, edited by the late Fred Patten. I’m going to speak perhaps too freely and say that I wish this had been something the FWG had had a lot more involvement in than it actually did; its existence somewhat undercuts our ability to do an FWG equivalent of the Nebula Showcase anthology, which is something I really would have liked to see us try. Of course, that goes back to our biggest resource constraint: volunteer time.)

I haven’t been a FWG member long, but I’ve been involved with SF/F communities and conventions for 20+ years.

Linking an anthology with the Coyotls is a good idea, in theory. You need a good contract for the stories that is fair to the authors and the FWG or whoever benefits from it. Who holds rights and for how long, who gets the proceeds from the sales, who promotes it, etc.

Which comes to my second point. When you start getting money involved, whether through dues or book sales or donations or whatever, you really need to have a legal entity in place. If you don’t, you open yourself to tax liabilities and other legal issues. If the FWG is going to start charging people money, we really need to set up some kind of business identity, like a convention would.

I love this community. I love the welcoming atmosphere and the supportive membership. Even if FWG stays as just a social group, it is doing a valuable service in providing a place where authors can connect with each other.

I teach quite a few workshops and classes at conventions on basic writing, book layout, and cover design that I would be willing to set up as online courses for the guild to offer to members as a perk. I’d offer to do more but my health has been a problem for quite a while.

This post had so many excellent things to think about and examined the history of the guild in general in such a great way. Seriously, thank you for writing it. It gave me a bunch to think about!

I’m gonna talk about the point I think is the biggest in this, what the guild should be about. Because how do we blaze our trail forward without knowing where we want to go?

As per your example I don’t think we should be the SFWA. I can’t see a need for a full on union currently for furry writers, unless examples can be pointed to over exploitation. I think most anthologies are pretty open on why payment prices are how they are among other things and the publishers treat people reasonably to my knowledge.

I’d say currently, the Furry Writers Guild is amazing for the Coyotls (we totally agree here, this is too important a thing we do to just give up) and as a social group. Maybe you can get some beta reading and such done on the Slack or in the forums and such. Should it just stay as a social group?

If it’s to remain a purely social group we need to build up the tools the group can use to help each other. Be more proactive in beta reading projects, more proactive on posting anthology openings and encouraging submissions (I see on the blog it’s already being worked on!), and heck just making things more social! We don’t gotta write all the time, a movie night where we discuss some of the writing of the film after (or just talk and have fun) would be excellent for camaraderie.

I made suggestions on all the other stuff already and I’m certain members probably have other excellent ideas too.

On the anthology, I’m sad to hear that it wasn’t able to make back its cost but I suppose it’s understandable. I get that anthologies are a hard sell, and outside of the big things like Roar, Fang, Claw, and the like it’s not always an easy seller.

Perhaps then an FWG zine of some kind might be more appropriate? It would certainly help people get the publishing credits they need to join the guild still without being as intense of an expense.

I do still like the idea of an anthology but could see why you’d be against it. If it was done costs would have to be minimal, maybe raised through kickstarter or kept purely print on demand and the prices might not be amazing per story. The idea of Coyotl spotlights really does seem like a smart idea too, maybe there’s a way we could get that back under a more FWG wing in the future.

While it’s not your post I’ll also say if dues are collected then for sure the organization needs to become a legal entity. With stuff like APAW Inc. coming into existence and the writers retreats and things they have planned, it seems reasonable we could do the same. Of course provided people stepped up to help. (To be clear, I mean this on the business making front. A FWG retreat would be incredible but probably a LITTLE too ambitious currently ;P)

I guess I’ll reply in the anthology category.

I think part of the issue here is not understanding indie publication. You mention here doing “print-on-demand”. That’s what indie publishing is, for the most part. You only get out of print-on-demand by doing offset printing, at which point you’re talking orders of minimum 1,000 copies.

I can also provide sales data for the first anthology. It also did not make back what I put into it, and that was with paying authors next-to-nothing, one of the stories being my own, and the anthology being small. And I didn’t pay for that cover art.

You also mention here about a zine. Traditionally, a lot of web-zines are free, which is one of the reasons GoAL didn’t work out when I started it years ago. Typically zines also do still pay authors, and thus you’re maybe paying smaller amounts at a time, but making none of it back.

I can’t speak on any official terms since I’m not part of the administration, but a FWG anthology in the future is probably not going to happen unless an editor/president steps up (like I did) and pays for it out-of-pocket.

Anywho, it’s going to be interesting looking into the next administration, if anyone steps up to volunteer for president. Since the FWG has been founded it’s never had two people who both want the job, and thus has always been a, “You want to do it? Cool, here are the keys to the website and an empty bottle of Xanax, have fun.” It’s nice to see others stepping up for specific tasks, but we’ll see how the election part goes.

Maybe, the source for revenue could be found in advertising in stead of dues. Would anyone be willing to sponsor a banner add or even the Coyotls for the honorable mention?

Yes, this is almost certainly something we should have. :slight_smile: It’s just a huge can of worms in practice. Both Makyo and I looked into what it takes to become a 501© non-profit (and I suspect our predecessors might have also?), and without getting into the hairy details, we…didn’t want to get into the hairy details. It’s like setting up, well, a corporation, complete with a required board of directors and fairly rigorous tax filings.

But this has already presented a problem, in that we can’t even get the FWG a separate PayPal address without being a real company. For years it was Poetigress’s personal PayPal account; now it’s an alias to mine, and you’re all basically stuck trusting that I’m maintaining the records correctly. (Fortunately, the finances are currently so dirt simple I can use a basic “cashbook” accounting spreadsheet.)

We don’t need a union, per se, no. (That isn’t to say that I wouldn’t like to see furry publishers not only pay more but be considerably better in both writing and delivering contracts as well as reporting sales and royalty, but that’s another issue.)

Okay. So (deep breath): I don’t think having the FWG simultaneously be a writers’ group—however we define it—and a publisher is a good idea. At least in principle, it’s a conflict of interest on two levels: it puts us in at least indirect competition with other furry publishers, and it means we’re potentially giving our own prospective members the publishing credits they need to become members. In practice neither of those has come up as an issue yet, but the potential is there—especially if we ever seriously consider required membership dues, however nominal they might be. A Coyotl anthology series that by definition reprints previously-published work doesn’t run into this issue, but a magazine would.

I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with taking advertising, although it could run into the “should the FWG be a real legal organization” issue mentioned above, and the chances are it wouldn’t be a lot of money.

The “should the FWG be a real legal organization” is beyond my pay grade. I would completely disregard the need for legal protection for a organization which would be lucky to build assets to offer any salary for organizers except for my rather dark view of society and human behavior. I wouldn’t be surprised by a law suit or sjw attack for no other purpose as to shut down any organization at any slight or injustice, imagined or not at this point in time. I guess I don’t have any idea or helpful suggestion either. I do have a question though. How are current donations handled? Are they under the same scrutiny?

So much great input. I think, the points about publications, legal status, and marketing are spot on. It seems like one thing we can focus on is what we’re doing well right now, to me that seems to be: 1- social platform via Slack, Telegram and the weekly chats (which also are a great platform for learning/education at least on a topic by topic level) 2- Market aggregation, which could be more up to date but it sounds like we’re on top of that and I know even just having open calls listed in the forums has been a HUGE help to me. and 3- the Coyotls, which we have room to step up and do more for. I look forward to Mary’s input on what we can do to really get behind the awards and imo this should be a priority. I agree with what Chipotle said about the award working as an avenue for broader recognition and I think we’d do well to latch onto and nurture that.

I still think we should do the follow free/easy/quick things.
Automate an annual email reminding the membership to consider donating.
Automate a monthly alert to go out on Slack and telegram (if that platform allows this) which says: another month is upon us, don’t forget to submit your articles, blot posts, fiction excerpts or author spotlights to the blog. (I also think this rider should be at the end of every blog post we do, if it isn’t already… but the people seem to be on telegram and slack more than the blog, so it would maybe serve well there)
Start a thread or some official post somewhere that lists: what the leadership needs done (what projects are on the table) and request volunteers to work on them. Ie: committees or projects that need manpower. Because expecting the membership to knock on your door and say, I’ll do this thing, requires some outreach that says, these are the things we need done.
Lastly, do everything we can to support and assist with the Coyotls.

These seem like doable and manageable tasks as opposed to things like, anthologies, tax exemption, newletters and more daunting tasks.

SJW attack :rofl: .

Night of the Living SJWs?

I don’t get it? Is that something below religious zealots character. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think it was a tactic something the West Burro Baptists utilized when they were around but I just don’t put anything past any radical. People just like to mock, insult, or attack people with different views for some reason.

This risks drifting off topic, but since you sound genuinely confused:

First of all, SJWs are not the problem. SJWs are good. Nazis are bad.

Second, there are much bigger organizations within furry (e.g., MFF) that have weathered attacks by Nazis and their friends. The FWG is not a target, being a legal entity wouldn’t make it a target, and even if it were a target, furries are good at fighting Nazis.

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Let it suffice to say that “SJW attacks” are not on our list of concerns, nor are they likely to be for the foreseeable future.

People who use “SJW” as a pejorative are dog-whistling – intentionally or not – in a way that makes a lot of the most marginalized individuals in a community feel unsafe. Posts like that do not make for a welcoming community to so many of the people who SHOULD feel safe and welcome here.

Honestly, I’m mostly just too tired to figure out how to gracefully push back against that kind of thing.

I had to ask my husband to step in and say something, because I’m not comfortable in places where that kind of dog-whistling is either ignored or laughed at (but in a way that lets it continue), and it makes it very hard to both engage and keep the kind of even-keeled demeanor that is generally required from women for them to be accepted as professional.

I don’t have much to add to the discussion that hasn’t already been said- and there’s been a lot said!- but I would be happy to volunteer to some capacity, not certain how much of my time I can donate but we can work things out. I would also be happy to send some money to the guild every so-often if that’s something that can be done. I would like to know there’s some sort of plan, ideal, or goal for the money though. Not just throwing money into a void and waiting to see if something happens.

My apologizes for dog whistling, but I don’t really know what to call those who think they have the moral high ground to harass or shut down things they don’t personally agree. As a writer, I loathe the idea of censorship of any kind form any group for any reason real or imagined. I feel this should always be a concern because I feel writers should engage society by the written word. You have my apologies, but my opinion of what kind of behaviors people will engage in to harass others who are different has not changed. Call them nazi if you wish, I’ll just call them dirt bags if no one has a problem with that. lol

And can someone please answer my previous question as to scrutiny of current donations? Does the importance of becoming a legal entity increase for a sponsorship donation as opposed to a general fund donation?